Bare Necessities on Donor Build?

[MtnCobra]

Really looking to do a budget Roadster build with my son while he is still in high school (He's a Junior).
Already have a donor: a very clean good condition lowish-miles (50k) 94 Mustang GT convertible 5.0 w/5spd. Bought it a few years ago with the long term plan of doing this project. Don't worry, he will get pro/performance driving instruction before he gets to drive it. It's a father/son project, not a car for him....

From my understanding (so far) the only things I would absolutely have to have in order to have an operational vehicle besides a base kit and my complete donor car would be wheels and tires (and powder coating of frame which is somewhat disappointing is not included) and paint although I may live with the gel coat for a bit.

There are lots of things I would LIKE to do, like IRS, but in the name of budget I want to limit "upgrades" to the bare minimum.

In your opinion what are the absolute "must upgrades" that one should really REALLY do above what will come from my donor?
Of course if there are things like bearings or bushing from the donor that are clearly worn I will replace them, but trying to understand what else really will be "required".

I am not looking for max authenticity or performance, just a fun project with a "useable" fun little project car when we are done.

I'm ok coming back in a few years to make upgrades, even if in the long run that costs more and takes more effort.

Thanks for the input! Apologies as I suspect this has been asked before but my searches did not really yield much on this specific topic

[gbranham]

Nothing wrong with a donor build. My first was a donor build in 2005, and loved it. Only thing I upgraded was the rear suspension; I went with 3-link. There are a lot of wear parts on a 30 year old car, even with only 50k miles on it, that you might consider refreshing during the build...things like steering rack (they're cheap), new gas tank, fuel pump, new front lower control arms (the ball joints are probably tired), bearings in the rear end, alternator...driveshaft u-joints...the list goes on and on. You'll also need to have the driveshaft shortened, but that's not a big expense. Consider new front hub bearings. These are all things I did on my donor build. I tried to use my donor radiator, and of course it started leaking after I got the car on the road. That was a PITA to swap on a freshly-painted car. Don't underestimate all the hoses (coolant, brake) that you'll likely also buy new. In the end, you'll probably be within spitting distance of a complete kit. However, sourcing all these parts on your own would save you a few bucks over a complete kit, but it's nice to know you have most of it in the complete kit.

Regardless of how you go, you'll have precious time with your teen in the garage, and that's priceless. Kudos to you for taking this on with your kiddo!

Greg

[MtnCobra]

Thanks!
Yes, that makes sense and I agree things like bearings, hoses, belts, fuel pump, control arms, etc should all be done. They aren't terribly expensive and probably should just be replaced due to their age. I'm certainly not opposed to that.

Appreciate the feedback, it sounds like I'm not too far off on my thinking. I know there will of course be extra/hidden expenses as we go through the project just trying to understand the bigger "must dos" on the initial build.

I'm already thinking an engine upgrade and IRS conversion some day, but that can be further down the road.

[Namrups]

If your thinking of IRS you need to make a decision now. Totally different frames. It would take a lot of cutting and welding to switch after the fact.

[Jeff Kleiner]

FYI, you can’t convert to IRS later; the whole rear of the chassis is different. OK, I’ll take that back, it can be done but requires a lot of fabrication and welding.

Jeff

[MtnCobra]

If your thinking of IRS you need to make a decision now. Totally different frames. It would take a lot of cutting and welding to switch after the fact.

Ahhh I did not realize that it was a completely different frame! Now I have a big decision to make!!

Thanks and glad I asked about this.

[Dave M]

I would suggest getting hold of a build manual before you order the kit. That way you will have a better idea of all that’s needed to put together a running driving car. There may be some optional items you might decide to get rather than trying to use donor stuff. As for the frame coating there are some pretty good paints out there that I think rival the powder coat.

[Alan_C]

IMO, the 3-link is your minimum rear suspension upgrade. My MK4 was a total donor build using a 38K miles 2004 Mach 1 as my donor bought at a Copart auction. All the major parts were transplanted to the kit and I still spent over $30K building the car with a Jeff Miller paint job. The problem with donor is the age of the parts. If your donor parts are in good mechanical condition, then definitely the way to go on a budget.
If your Mustang has hydroboost, use it. If it also has ABS, pass as it is too complicated for what you get. I did ABS and I had mixed feelings about the usefulness and ability to tune the front to rear bias. The car had the 11.8 inch rear rotor, not enough rear brake without aggressive Hawk brake pads at the rear. With the right pads, the car felt like the rear brakes were stopping the car, worked great but felt weird. A good proportioning valve would also be a must to dial in the brake bias.
Buy the front tubular lower control arms from FF, much better than using the Mustang based parts. I would consider buying the improved front spindles from FF also as they have better geometry than using the adapter the FF provides for the Mustang spindles. Of course, you want the Konis, but I believe they are still included.

[michael everson]

If it were me, I would go for the complete kit and use just the drivetrain from your donor. By the time you replace or rebuild all the donor parts you will be back at the complete kit price. There is a good reason you don't see donor builds anymore. Also you're Mustang, if in good shape may be worth more sold than as a donor.
Also you can get the frame coated through FFR even on the base kit.
Mike

[CraigS]

I should have this noted somewhere but can't find it so check w/ guys here if the 94 rear axle is the correct width. I also strongly recommend the 3 link rear suspension. Not only is it much better geometry wise but you really don't want to use control arms with 30 year old rubber bushings. I would agree w/ Mike, see what your 94 might sell for and consider going complete kit. I don't know what a donor build entails these days but you used to use the gauge cluster and the wiring harness from the donor. Those are 2 things I absolutely would not do.

[MtnCobra]

Thanks for all the helpful replies.
Gives me some things to think about and research.
I'm also going to try to get a build manual to look at, which I think would be really helpful.

Sounds like I better go with the 3-link rear.

One note on my donor car, while it is in great mechanical shape etc.... the paint is not great (at all) so probably just going to use the driveline from it, regardless of how many of the other parts I end up using from it.

[bil1024]

I went with 4 link, got upper and lower control arms and coil overs from the For Sale section on the forum, I got the base kit back in Jan and just upgraded with parts people sold here, saved a ton of money. Just something to think about.

[Tbev]

Here is the link where you can purchase the manuals.
https://www.factoryfiveparts.com/assembly-manual/

It will be a great father son project. One of my biggest regrets was waiting until everything was "right" to build my kit. By that time my father was too elderly and ill to help me. Do it now. The memories will be priceless.

[MPTech]

Have you tried looking for an unfinished Complete kit (with an IRS)? I think you can get a better deal and not putting old parts on your car.
I'd highly recommend not installing a 30 yo Radiator, fuel tank/pump/sender, power steering, brakes, and used wiring.
Also suggest the front LCAs & spindles.

Also, if you weren't aware, your insurance probably will not cover your son until he is 25 (that seems kind of standard). My son was not happy!

[MtnCobra]

Have you tried looking for an unfinished Complete kit (with an IRS)? I think you can get a better deal and not putting old parts on your car.
I'd highly recommend not installing a 30 yo Radiator, fuel tank/pump/sender, power steering, brakes, and used wiring.
Also suggest the front LCAs & spindles.

Also, if you weren't aware, your insurance probably will not cover your son until he is 25 (that seems kind of standard). My son was not happy!

I have looked briefly for an unfinished kit, as in years past I have seen some of those that looked like very good deals, but didn't see any. But I will continue looking and may expand my search area. One aspect about used kits that I think potentially could be an issue, but would need to do more research, is not having the ordinal paperwork from FFR in my name. In my brief research on the topic it wasn't clear if that was a big issue or not, probably depends on your state. If I actually find an unfinished kit I will dive into the licensing aspect in more depth.

Agreed on using the 30 yr old parts, I will only use them when/where really necessary.

Thanks for the heads up on the insurance. That isn't a surprise and something I will need to investigate and warn my son about.

[MtnCobra]

Here is the link where you can purchase the manuals.
https://www.factoryfiveparts.com/assembly-manual/

It will be a great father son project. One of my biggest regrets was waiting until everything was "right" to build my kit. By that time my father was too elderly and ill to help me. Do it now. The memories will be priceless.

Thanks! Yes I've already been putting this off for a long time so I can do "right" but at this point it's more about a project to do with my son before he is off on his own. So at this point I just want to do it, even if not in the perfect way. I know using an older donor isn't "ideal" but I think it will still be fun and most things can be upgraded later if needed.

[rustyrim]

I sent you a private message. it's at the top of the page notifications.

[Alan_C]

I have looked briefly for an unfinished kit, as in years past I have seen some of those that looked like very good deals, but didn't see any. But I will continue looking and may expand my search area. One aspect about used kits that I think potentially could be an issue, but would need to do more research, is not having the ordinal paperwork from FFR in my name. In my brief research on the topic it wasn't clear if that was a big issue or not, probably depends on your state. If I actually find an unfinished kit I will dive into the licensing aspect in more depth.

Agreed on using the 30 yr old parts, I will only use them when/where really necessary.

Thanks for the heads up on the insurance. That isn't a surprise and something I will need to investigate and warn my son about.

While cleaning and rebuilding parts are not fun, so stuff is pretty easy. Rebuilding the Mustang calipers is not rocket science and complete kits are offered everywhere from your local auto parts stores to RockAuto, which I used many times. Some in the past have taken their donor parts and used them for cores to get fully rebuilt and warranted remanufactured parts. At O'Reilly I found that a remanufactured alternator for my Acura was cheaper and had a better warranty than the new parts not to mention that remanufactured parts are often tested where new parts are not.
If not the correct width, then the rear axle can be modified, not a big deal nor big bucks from a competent differential shop. There are a lot of ways to save money using donor parts.
Another alternative would be to prepare the body on your donor and do a respray after some mild body work. If you have friends that paint, not that expensive of a job and one that could pay off significantly if done right.
I, personally, hate to see a Fox body Mustang in good mechanical condition getting torn down. Fox body Mustangs are popular now, as as said my others look closely at that value before you make it a donor.

[Joel Hauser]

I think you should take Mike Everson's comment about considering a complete kit to heart; He knows what he's talking about. Your donor parts may have 100,000 miles on them. I started with the donor build, and in the end, I doubt I saved any money over the complete kit. I gave up early on keeping track of all the parts I couldn't use from my mustang. The mustang lower control arms needed to to be replaced (and they're heavy and ugly). I could not get the mustang gauges to work in my build, so I ended up buying new ones. The brakes work, but I'm sure new calipers would e better. My old gas tank was rusty; the shocks were lousy; And the wiring harness dieting is very tedious and caused a lot of anxiety. At least that was my experience.

[i.e.427]

Some of the best memories I have in these cars are from the most basic of builds/donor builds. If you have any questions and want to talk to someone that builds these to all different price points, reach out to me and I can give you an honest list of which parts you can use and which parts you should upgrade.

Frank

[email protected]

[Lidodrip]

I can't offer any real world advice on doing a donor build, but I can comment on how much fun I had building our Cobra with my sons when they were in high school. It was one of the best things I have ever done. My oldest son even used the experience for his college application essay. With regards to insurance, most carriers require 10 years of licensed driving experience. However, my agent ended up getting us a policy with American Collectors and they will consider insuring my boys after 5 years of licensed driving experience and no moving violations. Have fun!

James

[StangRacer]

The rear end widths are different for the foxbody rear, 94-98 rear, and 99-03 rear... The rear end housings for the foxbody and 94-98 rear are the same width but the axles are different. The 94-98 axles a .75" longer than the foxbody axles making the 94-95 track width 1.5" wider. The 99-03 rear end housings are .75 wider than the foxbody and 94-98 rear end housings and the axles are .75 longer than the 94-98 axles making the track width 3" wider than the foxbody rear... IRRC, FFR based the roadster on the foxbody width rear but I would suggest verifying with one of the experienced builders on the forum. Since you have a 94 GT the solution, if it is an issue, would be to just simply purchase aftermarket foxbody length 5 lug axles, brackets for the Cobra calipers from Breeze to fit the foxbody axles, and a caliper and rotor kit from Rockauto.

I have been doing a great deal of research the past few months regards to purchasing a roadster. After years of drag racing and road racing I finally decided to sell off my race cars. I am fortunate that many of the parts and components I have left over from racing would work with a roadster build. Not to mention my wife would be very happy to put all of parts to use that are taking up space. I compared the cost of purchasing the base kit versus the complete kit. One of the "must haves" for me are pin drive wheels and, unfortunately, that option is not offered with the IRS so I would be limited to a 3 link or 4 link. After road racing in a class that limited us to the use of the 4 link suspension there is no way I would advocate putting that rear suspension in one of these cars. Once I add in the 3 link, tubular control arms for the pin drives, and various other options the cost for the base kit is within $400 of the complete kit. Once the cost of the fuel tank, SN95 spindles, front brakes, etc... are all added in for the base kit it makes more sense to go with the complete kit... just food for thought.

[Avalanche325]

Even 8 or 9 years ago, it was to the point that a Fox donor build was not that cost effective if you had to buy one. I would definitely make sure that you have a good handle on your 94s value.

A 30 year old car has some worn out or deteriorated parts even if there are hardly any miles. The 94 axles are too wide. Not sure if it starts in 94, but at some point, there are some janky wiring things that need to be done with the gauges to make the ECU happy.

I would check out some old threads on SN95s to see what the deal is,

Sounds like a great father / son project.

[Mike.Bray]

One of the "must haves" for me are pin drive wheels and, unfortunately, that option is not offered with the IRS so I would be limited to a 3 link or 4 link.

I did the narrow rear end with 3 link and the pin drive front end. It wasn't all smooth sailing as no one at Factory Five seemed to know what the pin drive front end was. I had to track down the part number from an old order list I had.

If you build a MKIV for pin drive feel free to reach out if you need any help.

Mike

[gbranham]

One of the "must haves" for me are pin drive wheels and, unfortunately, that option is not offered with the IRS so I would be limited to a 3 link or 4 link.

Pin drive is cool and authentic, but I'd have a hard time giving up IRS for it. To each their own, though!

[Alan_C]

Two of the main drawbacks to going with 15 inch wheels is the lack of a good selection of performance tires and the small brakes required. If you want handling over period correctness, go 17 and better yet 18 inch wheels. I had the 17 inch Halibrand replicas from FFR, they looked great to me and the Kumho XS was a great tire back in the day and, unfortunately, they were discontinued long ago. On my 70 Mustang restomod, I went 18 inch. I have purchased a coupe kit and I will be going 19 inch. All done to fit larger brakes and better tires. If you plan to do any high performance driving like autocross and track days, IMO the 15 inch wheels don't cut it as tires that fit a 15 inch wheels can't compare to modern 18 and 19 inch rubber.

[Sarcasticshrub]

I agree with what others have said regarding your donor. Put a little into it and sell it for the cash toward parts for your MKIV build. Dealing with old parts that may or may not work (hopefully finding out BEFORE installing them) is a pain. I did that with other projects and it just prolonged completion and frustration.

If you are looking at your build as a fun project to get done before the next ice age with fewer frustrations, go with a complete kit. If you don't mind countless pauses in your build for trips to the hardware/auto parts store, wrecking yard, etc. for replacement parts, stick with the base + donor. Heck, who am I kidding, you'll have countless trips to the hardware/auto parts store, and wrecking yard regardless...

Additionally, spend some quality time scouring this and the other FFR forums and reading through the builds. The other forum has more to say on donor builds (it's been around for much longer).

Base kit here, all new parts except the hand brake, gas filler tube, and IRS drop-out of a 2015 Mustang. Planning my build consisted of having the build manual (a guide, not a true step-by-step) and from the wealth of experience and information readily found on the forums. Due to what I learned I changed my initial build plan to upgrading to IRS, power steering, upgraded pads for stock brakes, powder coating from FFR, and front FFR spindles. Many other unexpected changes came after getting into my build but were expected. It's all part of the fun.

No matter what you decide, your Father/Son project will be an epic journey.

[Mike.Bray]

Pin drive is cool and authentic, but I'd have a hard time giving up IRS for it. To each their own, though!

Vintage Wheels can do pin drive with an adjusted offset for standard width suspensions, they just don't look as nice.

I know I've seen a company that makes custom halfshaft lengths for the IRS, if you had shorter halfshafts the rest would not be too difficult to figure out.

[StangRacer]

I did the narrow rear end with 3 link and the pin drive front end. It wasn't all smooth sailing as no one at Factory Five seemed to know what the pin drive front end was. I had to track down the part number from an old order list I had.

If you build a MKIV for pin drive feel free to reach out if you need any help.

Mike

Thanks Mike... I am sure I will have lots of questions.

[MtnCobra]

Thanks again for all the replies. I'm still doing my research and given the feedback I will say I'm now seriously considering going the complete kit route.(although not 100% decided).

With that said I'm still thinking I would probably use my '94 for the engine/trans/rear end.
I think the best I could hope to get out of my '94 if I sold it would be ~$7k and for that, unless I went with used/unknown parts I don't see a way to get a decent engine/trans/RE for any less than that (and probably a lot more if I went with "good" stuff). Plus there is the hassle/time to sell my car and source the other stuff. Is my thinking wrong on that front??
My engine/trans/rear aren't new, but I know they are in good working order without a ton of miles. I also live in the mountains at elevation so having fuel injection is pretty nice. On that note do folks know if its reasonably straightforward to use the stock Ford ECU/Fuel Injection and integrate with the wiring setup that comes with the complete kit? That aspect isn't real clear reading about the complete kit on the FFR website.

Oh I'm also aware my '94 rear end is too wide but it sounds like there is a fairly straightforward fix with 5-lug Fox-length axles.

The one scenario where I think it would make sense to sell my '94 is if I found an unfinished build that already had an engine/trans. I have seen some pretty good deals on those that have sold in the past, but don't see any anywhere currently. If anyone knows of one, let me know. I may post a "wanted" ad for one in the classified section here.

Thanks again!

[Alan_C]

On that note do folks know if its reasonably straightforward to use the stock Ford ECU/Fuel Injection and integrate with the wiring setup that comes with the complete kit?
Oh I'm also aware my '94 rear end is too wide but it sounds like there is a fairly straightforward fix with 5-lug Fox-length axles.

It does not matter if it is a base or complete kit, integrating the OEM EFI is pretty straight forward. In 2011 I built a MK4 from a base kit using a 2004 Mach 1 as a donor. At the time, the donor was only 7 years old and had 38K miles on it. I stripped out the entire wiring harness from the donor. Art Cuesta at WireDiet removed all the unnecessary stuff from the harness and integrated the Ford portion with a EZ wiring harness. Not cheap but it worked great. The complete kit uses the Ron Francis harness. In a similar fashion, you would integrate your PCM or ECU if you prefer with the Ron Francis harness. Think of the Ron Francis harness as the body harness as it provides everything but the engine management components and wiring. Contact FFR and they can likely send you a addendum to the build manual specific to what you are doing. This is not any different than integrating a modern Coyote control pack and wiring with the Ron Francis harness.
The rear axle assembly from my donor was too wide to use directly. I took it to a rear axle/differential shop and had my housing and axles narrowed by, as I remember it, 1 5/8" per side to get the proper width. I used the ABS function, so I kept the tone rings which contribute to the stock extra width. Narrowing a rear housing and axles is not a big deal. Just make sure in writing that the width you want is specified. I had an issue with my shop where he did not follow my specs and narrowed the housing too much only to have to fix it.

[Higgybulin]

Oh I'm also aware my '94 rear end is too wide but it sounds like there is a fairly straightforward fix with 5-lug Fox-length axles.

This is wrong information. Pics below are of an unaltered 94-98 rear end(blue) and foxbody(white). Wheels and tires are the same size on both cars 315/35/17. If you are not autocrossing, your rear end will bolt right in with a 3 or 4 link.
Screenshot_20240408_095415_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20240408_095337_Gallery.jpg
Higgy

[Jeff Kleiner]

This is wrong information. Pics below are of an unaltered 94-98 rear end(blue) and foxbody(white). Wheels and tires are the same size on both cars 315/35/17. If you are not autocrossing, your rear end will bolt right in with a 3 or 4 link.
Screenshot_20240408_095415_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20240408_095337_Gallery.jpg
Higgy

True, it'll bolt in but unless you run a higher than usual ride height or stick with narrower tires on a 9" rim you're going to run into body to tire interference issues.

Jeff

[Higgybulin]

True, it'll bolt in but unless you run a higher than usual ride height or stick with narrower tires on a 9" rim you're going to run into body to tire interference issues.

Jeff

Respectfully disagree
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...rear-end-width

[StangRacer]

Pin drive is cool and authentic, but I'd have a hard time giving up IRS for it. To each their own, though!

I would love to have IRS. Unfortunately, FFR no longer offers the TBird IRS that can be narrowed down for the pin drive wheels.

I did briefly research what Mike suggested... narrowing the 2015 Mustang IRS. I found some information of folks narrowing them and putting them under older cars, but I did not find much information on the effects on the suspension geometry.

If I do this build it is just going to be a fun street cruiser... I have no plans to autocross or do track days. I had plenty of years road racing and drag racing and believe it is all out of my system... LOL!!!

MtnCobra... sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Respectfully disagree
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...rear-end-width

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree Higgy

My comment is based on actual experience with a car I did the body & paint on for a customer. With a standard '94-'98 rear using the FFR 17" rims and 315/35 tires he had to run a rear ride height of nearly 6" to avoid tire to body rub on bumps when there were two people in the car. He ultimately tired of it and didn't care for the tail high look and wound up swapping axles and caliper brackets so that he could bring it down and not have clearance issues.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Alan_C]

If I do this build it is just going to be a fun street cruiser... I have no plans to autocross or do track days.

I am going to recommend you not ignore the experience you get with a little autocross time. There are few places you are going to throw your car into a turn at the speed, RPM, and G's you will when you autocross. Knowing first hand the limits of YOU and your CAR is invaluable. Figuring it out on the street when you have to make an emergency maneuver with obstructions all around can be devastating.
I only autocrossed my MK4 a few times, but the first 270 degree spin I had do to too much braking going into a corner is just one example. When the rear goes in these cars it can go so fast you have no time to correct it. Mine was 3-link car, the performance suspension at the time and Kumho XS tires 255s front and 295s rear. A very well balanced car until you push too hard.
Jeff's experience here is invaluable too as my first mistake was running the tire pressure too high for my first session. When I dropped the tire pressure into the low 20's, the car was night and day different. Listen to Jeff, he will steer, pun intended, you away from making big mistakes in your build. If IRS is a strong desire, order it as you cannot retrofit the car without re-engineering everything at the rear.
I have had a 3-link, so the next level is the 2015 Mustang IRS for my coupe.
Keep working though your desires and must haves to get the kit you want. It is going to be with you for a while, you want no regrets on your choices.

[MtnCobra]

It does not matter if it is a base or complete kit, integrating the OEM EFI is pretty straight forward. In 2011 I built a MK4 from a base kit using a 2004 Mach 1 as a donor. At the time, the donor was only 7 years old and had 38K miles on it. I stripped out the entire wiring harness from the donor. Art Cuesta at WireDiet removed all the unnecessary stuff from the harness and integrated the Ford portion with a EZ wiring harness. Not cheap but it worked great. The complete kit uses the Ron Francis harness. In a similar fashion, you would integrate your PCM or ECU if you prefer with the Ron Francis harness. Think of the Ron Francis harness as the body harness as it provides everything but the engine management components and wiring. Contact FFR and they can likely send you a addendum to the build manual specific to what you are doing. This is not any different than integrating a modern Coyote control pack and wiring with the Ron Francis harness.
The rear axle assembly from my donor was too wide to use directly. I took it to a rear axle/differential shop and had my housing and axles narrowed by, as I remember it, 1 5/8" per side to get the proper width. I used the ABS function, so I kept the tone rings which contribute to the stock extra width. Narrowing a rear housing and axles is not a big deal. Just make sure in writing that the width you want is specified. I had an issue with my shop where he did not follow my specs and narrowed the housing too much only to have to fix it.

Thanks very much for this! I just spoke to Art, who was extremely nice and helpful. My current plan is to go with the complete kit and use my 94 for the engine/trans/rear and I will initially stick with the stock EFI via having Art "diet" my factory harness down to just the min required engine stuff that than can fairly easily (by the sounds of it) integrate with the Ron Francis harness. This will be a fair bit cheaper than immediately going to aftermarket EFI and one less variable when it comes to initially running the engine (since I know my current engine runs well).

[Alan_C]

Thanks very much for this! I just spoke to Art, who was extremely nice and helpful. My current plan is to go with the complete kit and use my 94 for the engine/trans/rear and I will initially stick with the stock EFI via having Art "diet" my factory harness down to just the min required engine stuff that than can fairly easily (by the sounds of it) integrate with the Ron Francis harness.

In 2012 or so when Art dieted my harness, he used a EZ Wiring 20 or so circuit wiring harness for the rest of the car. I term Art's use of the EZ Wiring harness as the "body" harness as it provides the wiring for the lighting, indicators, accessories etc. Everything but the wiring that the Ford ECU would talk to that is still needed. If Art diet's your harness as he did for me 11 years ago, you will not need a Ron Francis harness. Art may take a Ron Francis harness and complete the diet wiring with it, but I will bet that using the Ron Francis harness will cost you more. Anyway, talk to Art a length as what would be the best way to go today, as I would think a lot has changed with the way we build the kits today as well as the technology available today.